Yep. The "dd" pair in Welsh is always pronounced with a soft "th" as in "that". And one "f" in Welsh is pronounced more like "v", while "ff" carries the regular "f" sound.
I mentally rename characters as needed. Especially if the author’s pronunciation isn’t linguistically correct or I simply don’t like it. lol. Chaol? Cole. Final answer.
Names like these are an absolute nightmare for directors and narrators of audiobooks. Even when the author gives the “correct” pronunciation, fans will argue over it. Or there will be the author who insists the pronunciation should sound “Danish, but with a rolled R like in French”. ???!!!
I suggest all such authors should try reading their works aloud as they write. There would be far fewer odd consonants, I think.
Love this piece! The amount of Irish words and names used willy nilly throughout the Fourth Wing series is hilarious because it doesn’t seem to follow any convention within the world. And they are hard to pronounce if you don’t speak the language.
Anything welsh looking I skip over with a respectful nod. Unlike the Welsh we don’t have y’s, z’s, x’s or even w’s in Irish so I don’t know where to begin pronouncing them.
Yes! I've seen many complaints about the Fourth Wing series blending Gaelic and Gallic names with seemingly no underlying structure. Willy nilly naming is the best way to put it 🙏
See also the Liaden Universe (by authors Steve Miller & Sharon Lee): the Yxtrang, a line of protagonists called yos’Phelium and yos’Galan, where the culture is contract based including reproductive contracts of ~ year, space ships, and clones/autodocs/genetic engineering…… ;)
I'm looking at the list of character names right now — WILD. Respect to them for having some sort of system, but howwwwww they kept all these straight while writing is beyond me.
I just hate read the Zodiac Academy books (I only finished because I am A Finisher) and my biggest complaint was that the books were supposed to take place in “Chicago” but were clearly written by someone who was British, and somehow the name Caleb was shortened to Cal. Listen, I can do a lot of suspending of disbelief but Cal is not a nickname for Caleb. KALE maybe but not Cal.
I am not a Finisher, so I have nothing but ✊ respect. Romance fantasy authors are always looking for sexy little nicknames like this, but now that you mention it, Cale has a cooler ring to it than Cal anyways.
Fantasy names are the reason I fear attempting saying any of my coworkers names aloud at staff meetings. Let Todd save the Grand Spire of Syphante Caldrea!!
So my second language is Russian, which never met a consonant combination it didn’t like. A couple of favorite examples: “mnyeh nravitsya” (“I like it”) and “khvatayet” (“it suffices”, with the first sound being the “ch” in the German “ach”). The “kv” in “Kvothe” wouldn’t even be an eyebrow raiser (in fact, the word for “apartment” is “kvartira”).
This is amazing. I just listened to a pronunciation guide of 'kvartira' and I'm so surprised that the K isn't silent. Somehow, those K and V sounds work together effortlessly!
Agree, love it, beautiful 🤩. — Tolkein was a philologist at Oxford/Cambridge aka Oxbridge who eccentrically studied extinct languages for an extended period where there little to no interests is his classes compared to his peers. The Hobbit’s publishing and release by his peers ignored it and surmised collectively it was a children’s book, and what it should have been? I think it’s classical literature. He used his studies to create the names of characters derived from very obscure old Norse mythological lexicon and some other things from other regions, and yeah stayed to the natural syllabic inflections and such of words. Verbs, names, etc. So, you’re correct. Haha
Fflewddur Fflam was a Welsh prince, mentioned in the 13th century text, the Mabinogion. It's certainly not a fantasy name!
Welsh has been plundered in the name of lazy fantasy since at least Tolkien -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y35pg0pwpo
No way! I’m so happy you shared this — I was already delighted by the name, now I’m even more delighted to learn it was a real Welsh prince.
Yep. The "dd" pair in Welsh is always pronounced with a soft "th" as in "that". And one "f" in Welsh is pronounced more like "v", while "ff" carries the regular "f" sound.
I was just about to point this out, too.
Thank god I'm not the only one who just skips over names...and reads "Z guy said". Loved this post!
hahahahah this is exactly what my mind does too. You’re NOT ALONE 🙏
But then you get the author who insists on all names beginning with Q, and I'm like, "dammit, which Q guy again?!"
I mentally rename characters as needed. Especially if the author’s pronunciation isn’t linguistically correct or I simply don’t like it. lol. Chaol? Cole. Final answer.
Hahahha I do the same thing!! I cannot pronounce Chaol out loud or in my head and I’m not sorry 😂
Can’t. Won’t. Shan’t. 😅
And while we're at it, we're also throwing away books with titles following the "X of Y and Zs" format. The Cliche of Rot and Ruin! Exiled!!
THANK YOU for saying this, I almost included a little tidbit about cancelling the word “Court”. I’ve never heard “rot and ruin” but I’m obsessed.
Names like these are an absolute nightmare for directors and narrators of audiobooks. Even when the author gives the “correct” pronunciation, fans will argue over it. Or there will be the author who insists the pronunciation should sound “Danish, but with a rolled R like in French”. ???!!!
I suggest all such authors should try reading their works aloud as they write. There would be far fewer odd consonants, I think.
I hadn't even considered the audio book readers 🥵
I have a vivid memory as a kid of listening to Jim Dale read Harry Potter for the first time, and realizing Hermione was not pronounced Her-Mee-Own.
Love this piece! The amount of Irish words and names used willy nilly throughout the Fourth Wing series is hilarious because it doesn’t seem to follow any convention within the world. And they are hard to pronounce if you don’t speak the language.
Anything welsh looking I skip over with a respectful nod. Unlike the Welsh we don’t have y’s, z’s, x’s or even w’s in Irish so I don’t know where to begin pronouncing them.
Yes! I've seen many complaints about the Fourth Wing series blending Gaelic and Gallic names with seemingly no underlying structure. Willy nilly naming is the best way to put it 🙏
The Riddlemaster series (which I love by the way).
The main antagonist's name is Ghisteslwchlohm.
Like I know it's Welsh-ish but my mind just says, "Ghee-klom," because I'm an uncultured swine.
I looked up the pronunciation, and even google isn't sure. I really hope someone asked Patricia before she passed 🙏
See also the Liaden Universe (by authors Steve Miller & Sharon Lee): the Yxtrang, a line of protagonists called yos’Phelium and yos’Galan, where the culture is contract based including reproductive contracts of ~ year, space ships, and clones/autodocs/genetic engineering…… ;)
I'm looking at the list of character names right now — WILD. Respect to them for having some sort of system, but howwwwww they kept all these straight while writing is beyond me.
I just hate read the Zodiac Academy books (I only finished because I am A Finisher) and my biggest complaint was that the books were supposed to take place in “Chicago” but were clearly written by someone who was British, and somehow the name Caleb was shortened to Cal. Listen, I can do a lot of suspending of disbelief but Cal is not a nickname for Caleb. KALE maybe but not Cal.
I am not a Finisher, so I have nothing but ✊ respect. Romance fantasy authors are always looking for sexy little nicknames like this, but now that you mention it, Cale has a cooler ring to it than Cal anyways.
requesting pronunciation for Ymadeleine, please
I’m gonna jump in and take a stab at it ahead of the author here…
Is it “I’m a da’lany”? Haha!
Absolutely loved this piece - I laughed out loud multiple times!
THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT
Fantasy names are the reason I fear attempting saying any of my coworkers names aloud at staff meetings. Let Todd save the Grand Spire of Syphante Caldrea!!
Hahahah justice for kvothe!!! It’s not that bad! Or maybe I’m biased because I love that story so much
you’re so right — of all the great offenders, Kvothe is the LEAST inconvenient and a good story does make up for it 👀 mostly
It would make up even more for it were Mr Rothfuss to pull his finger out and complete the series, grizzle grizzle.
Loved this thanks for sharing
Thank you, Vince !!!
So my second language is Russian, which never met a consonant combination it didn’t like. A couple of favorite examples: “mnyeh nravitsya” (“I like it”) and “khvatayet” (“it suffices”, with the first sound being the “ch” in the German “ach”). The “kv” in “Kvothe” wouldn’t even be an eyebrow raiser (in fact, the word for “apartment” is “kvartira”).
This is amazing. I just listened to a pronunciation guide of 'kvartira' and I'm so surprised that the K isn't silent. Somehow, those K and V sounds work together effortlessly!
Agree, love it, beautiful 🤩. — Tolkein was a philologist at Oxford/Cambridge aka Oxbridge who eccentrically studied extinct languages for an extended period where there little to no interests is his classes compared to his peers. The Hobbit’s publishing and release by his peers ignored it and surmised collectively it was a children’s book, and what it should have been? I think it’s classical literature. He used his studies to create the names of characters derived from very obscure old Norse mythological lexicon and some other things from other regions, and yeah stayed to the natural syllabic inflections and such of words. Verbs, names, etc. So, you’re correct. Haha
Cheers
Yggdrasil is actually the name of the tree of life in Norse mythology